Zoran Janković: True leaders, if they want to nurture new leaders better than themselves, leave the glory to them
Every leader has their own smell. In Zoran Janković – prime minister manqué, a mayor who is simultaneously one of the most recognisable symbols of modern Ljubljana – a more powerful symbol of the city even than Ljubljana Castle, the river Ljubljanica or the Olimpija football club – and, along with Ivan Tavčar, easily one of the most famous mayors the city has ever had, former CEO of Mercator – this specific smell is so strong that it is hard to miss. The mayor is a man of strong character. He himself places enormous importance on first impressions. Despite the grandeur of the municipal building, one quickly relaxes and starts to feel at home when visiting the mayor in his office. Impressionist paintings, the timelessness of the walls of the old town hall, the dark mahogany furniture, photographs of encounters with foreign statesman and pictures of the mayor’s granddaughters and grandson… And at the same time the simplicity and sincerity of Janković’s manner.
He claims not to believe in fate but he does believe in the beauty of life. He says that what matters in life is not how many times you fall down, but that you always pick yourself up again. That victories should not make you euphoric but motivate you to always want more. And when your journey ends – as one day it is bound to, if only as a consequence of the natural cycle of life – you mustn’t forget that what will remain are relationships. He could never have been an accountant – he needs relationships, he needs contact. We talk about the fact that personal ambition is not enough for success, how beautiful life can be if you know how to live it, how fortune favours the brave and how the mayor will always protect his people.
You have to set yourself a goal in everything you do
M: My first question is: what does it mean to you to be a winner? You’ve had a lot of victories in your career – personal victories, business triumphs, and victories of other kinds. What can you tell me about the psyche of a winner? What has life taught you about this? What does being successful mean to you?
ZJ: You have to set yourself a goal in everything you do in life. On the basis of this goal, you see whether you are capable of achieving it. It’s the same in sport. And with every success you achieve, the goals are higher. After I graduated from the Faculty of Economics, I began my career as a travelling salesman. I started out working for a firm in Zagreb, where they tried to convince me that I couldn’t be successful because the competition was too great. A year and a half later, I was the best paid travelling salesman in Yugoslavia. I was paid on commission – two per cent of turnover. After four years of that, I set myself a higher goal. I wanted to be a director and had only one condition – that the managing director of Mercator accepted me. And so I got a job at Emona. When I left Emona as managing director of the entire holding company and deputy chairman of SODZ, I was young and very successful. Since there was no bigger company than Mercator, I started my own business, until they invited me back to Mercator as CEO. The important thing is to keep on setting higher goals. Your essential character doesn’t change, it is merely refined, since you’re constantly gaining new knowledge and experience. But if you want to win, it’s important to have a good team around you. In all these years my job has been to find the right place for everyone who works with me, to motivate them and protect them. My biggest strength is that I have a good sense for people and a very strong intuition. Whenever I’ve allowed myself to be persuaded to give someone an opportunity, it’s always turned out to be the wrong decision. That first contact is for me absolutely the most important thing. To go back to sport: I don’t know if you follow football, but I go to watch matches in Maribor wearing a green T-shirt [the colours of Ljubljana team Olimpija]. Last year I posed for a photo with the Purples [Maribor] but I didn’t join in with the chants of “Maribor, champions!” I just had my photograph taken with them. The curve of success is never only in one direction: there are always downs in life as well as ups. And it’s true: it doesn’t matter how many times you fall down, the important thing is that you pick yourself up every time. No matter how far you go in life, Minka, your path to the top will end one day. And what will remain are your relationships with people. Personally, I am very direct in my relationships, very clear, black-and-white. You’re going to finish your master’s degree. As for the account you’re going to give of our conversation, I leave that up to you. But you came to a meeting without knowing anybody here, you wrote an email and found your way to me on your own initiative. I decided to give you a chance. Take whatever you think is good about me. The rest you can leave.
I am the first mandate-holder in this country to say that I would only take over mercator if they gave me a free hand.
M: I find it interesting what you said about victories – that you shouldn’t be euphoric about them. The book I refer to in the introduction to my master’s thesis also introduces a hypothesis: if you look at the range of emotions of the average individual and those of a top leader, you can see that the amplitude is much bigger in the case of the average individual – from euphoria to depression, and so on. I would like to ask you how you learned this. Do Ciril Zlobec’s words – that you do not celebrate your victories and do not give up when defeated – relate to something that is innate in you?
ZJ: It’s not about learning. Most of it is something you have inside you, although it’s true that to a certain extent you can always learn more, always improve. These victories of mine… I am the first mandate-holder in this country to say that I would only take over Mercator if they gave me a free hand in the running of it. I have been the president of numerous federations, and of the board of Olimpija. The European Men’s Handball Championship was held in Slovenia for the first time in 2004. That was the first medal for Slovenia in any team sport. It wouldn’t have happened without me. All the preparations – from the selection of Slovenia as host country to finding the money and getting the new arena built – all of that was my work. But when the lads were posing for their photograph with their coach, I chose not to be in the picture. I let them enjoy their victory. They know the real story. Even today. If a leader wants to nurture new leaders who are better than himself, he lets them have the glory.
M: Would you say that it is an important quality of a good leader to know how to take responsibility in a crisis and, at the same time, to share his victories with others? Have I understood you correctly?
ZJ: To take responsibility when a crisis occurs. Why did you write to me and not to the deputy mayor, who is younger? Because I am the face of the city. A personal brand in myself. The only thing you could have done better, Minka, is to have prepared better for the interview. And found out more about me. The next time you interview someone, take their CV and figure out who you’re talking to.
I say what I know or sense that the audience needs – if they start dozing off or chatting among themselves, that means you’re no good
M: I’ll bear that in mind. But rather than an interview about your own personal journey, this is an interview about the general rules of winning in business and in life, if any such rules exist. That’s why I didn’t really look that closely into your background and career milestones. We have also talked about the concept of power. What does the concept of power mean to you? In what ways would you say that power changes people or has changed you? What does it mean to you that someone is capable of taking power or that they have power – how would you describe that?
ZJ: It’s a question of the power of knowledge and attitude, not a formal position. The power of success lies in people believing in you or following you. Look at your audience, don’t question it. If you’ve got a full house applauding you at the end, that means you were great. An empty house means you were no good. I hold an open day for citizens on the first Tuesday of every month. I’ve received 32,000 people over the last 17 years. Anyone can come. Some stay for a minute, others for ten minutes, depending on what the problem is. I never read speeches, except at weddings. I talk about what I know, what I feel the audience needs. If they start dozing off, or chatting among themselves, that means you’re no good, you’re not interesting. Once, for example, when I was a guest at a round-table discussion in Split, I got ovations. It ended with the mayor of Split telling me I should come and be mayor there, the dean of the Faculty of Economics inviting me to be an occasional lecturer and Belgrade also inviting me to come and be mayor. Even when I was at Mercator I used to give lectures to economics students three or four times a year. Two full halls, TV cameras, a thousand people each time. Take the good parts of me but when it comes to the bad parts, Minka, be better than me. It’ll be wonderful if you turn out to be better than me. That would mean that the country will flourish. If you youngsters are better at your age – you’re 23 – it will be a great country to live in. You could be a lesbian, you have every right to be, so why not? A believer or a non-believer. The important thing is that you’re a human being. If you can’t help me, at least don’t hurt me, that’s the essential thing. You have a boyfriend, perhaps you’re going to break up with him. Are you going to blame him for being an idiot? Perhaps you were a cow.
Don’t bite the hand that once fed you
M: I try to avoid self-sabotage. Criticising one’s own choices is a form of self-sabotage.
ZJ: The essential thing is that you take the good and learn from the bad. And make sure that a defeat – even a personal defeat – strengthens you and hardens you. Over time you will realise – and I’ve been working for almost 45 years – that for a victory you need to persevere and be courageous.
M: Would you say that one quality of a good leader is that he knows himself very well but is also realistic in the way he sees himself: that you know what your colours are, good and bad?
ZJ: Absolutely. Everyone should be aware of their faults and weaknesses. As far as leadership is concerned, it is essential that you respect your colleagues and protect them. I’m very demanding towards the people who work with me. I have little time for bluffers. I never leave the office until my desk is clear. I don’t use a computer – I don’t even have one. You can write what you want. I treat my work as a mission and my job as a holiday – here I’m on holiday every day. Last year I took just four days’ holiday with my wife and granddaughter. I hate travelling. Being here, this is my life. Nobody can take Mercator away from me in Maribor, and I’ve been out of Mercator for a long time. Nobody can take the pedestrian zone away from me. So, Minka, follow your goals. I can see that you’re very ambitious. You use the feminine charms that you undoubtedly possess – your smile and your eyes. The question is, though, how persistent and hard-working are you?
M: I think that I’m both those things, but I have to see sense in what I’m doing and I have to feel it as a mission.
ZJ: Your goal right now is to complete your master’s degree.
M: A master’s degree, yes, and then I’d like to find a job to die for. Like they say, if you don’t have something in life to die for, you’re not really living…
ZJ: You’ll get your master’s degree, that’s a fact. This year. What are you tempted to do after that, if you could choose?
M: If I could choose, I’ve been interested in the psychological factor of business for as long as I can remember. Energy, people, focus. And that a leader is everything that you have said – one thing is the education you get, while the other is what you have inside you. I think that is the main factor.
ZJ: But you don’t need a psychologist for that, that’s something you have inside you. University gives you a broader and deeper view, but you want to be a director. You’ll never be satisfied with anything else.
M: I feel that I need autonomy in my work.
ZJ: First you have to learn to cooperate, to sit and listen. And decide that you’re going to be better. I will be better than Janković. That should be your goal. But you’re also going to have to learn to read a company balance sheet. So that you know what a debit is and what a credit is.
M: My vision has always been to offer psychological consulting to leaders. A kind of business consulting, but less focused on numbers and more on soft factors.
ZJ: The two things go together, but your youth will be a big problem in consulting. You’re too young. You can’t advise me. Working with people is the basis of consulting. You must be prepared for every meeting. So that you know who is sitting opposite you. What kind of character is Zoran Janković? What are his good and bad sides? Are you just going to sit and nod your head when you meet the president or are you going to be ready to have a conversation? Looks aren’t enough, Minka.
M: Aha! There’s always a prettier one, isn’t there? But, Mr Mayor, could you tell me a little more about your vision? They say that a leader always leads with energy… How have you managed to maintain your level of energy despite all your battles?
ZJ: My resources are the results of 40 years of work, the results of my relationship with colleagues, with you. Apart from studying economics, I’ve never had any particular training. Minka, you have the advantage here, because you’re studying this, but following me in the media is not enough. Wherever you go, find out about the person first. Study the person you’re going to meet.
Personal ambition is not enough for success
M: What, in your opinion, defines a successful person? Personal ambition presumably comes into it, but is not on its own a sufficient factor for success. Why do some people dare to go further, run faster?
ZJ: Personal ambition is certainly not enough for success. We can all be ambitious, we can all wish that we were Luka Dončić. It’s not going to happen. You might tick some of the boxes, but the only way to be successful is to work hard and be willing to learn and make sacrifices. Courage isn’t enough either.
M: What do you think of the idea that you have to feed your ego in order to be psychologically healthy, and that you must be able to seize power, wherever you are, since this is how you start to build your potential?
ZJ: Why do you think that someone has to know how to feed their own ego? It’s wrong to place so much emphasis on this. Successes are food, but what does that make failures and defeats? If you only ever experience successes in your life, something will eventually give. There has to be failure. What is success? One victory or the championship final? The important thing is to the important thing is to follow your path and face the challenges you meet along the way… There’s no need to feed the ego. If you reach your final goal too quickly, you will remain unsatisfied in life. Ambition and goals should increase gradually. For now you’ve got your bachelor’s degree. Soon you’ll have your master’s, but that wasn’t your final goal. It’s a condition to be able to think about what you want to do, who you want to work with, when you’d like to become a company director, when you’re going to have children. Satisfaction and sorrow are both part of this journey.
M: When you reach your goal, you are empty. And if you don’t have a vision, a mission…
ZJ: No, no, you need a new goal.
Failed kings are ten a penny
M: You said that if we only feed our ego, we soon end up without any personal satisfaction. What in your opinion defines the maturity of a leader and how important is maturity in a leader?
ZJ: The maturity of a leader means that he’s a good leader. But a good leader is also a demanding one. In the first place towards himself, and then towards his colleagues. That is the key. Just before you got here, I had a meeting with 32 people. They applauded me at the end, although they are all directors themselves. That is what you are asking me. You can sing or dance or do anything else you want. Whatever you decide, you get an answer. You can be ambitious, but if results aren’t forthcoming, you have to change something. Train even more. Or change your field of endeavour.
M: It is said that the way to go furthest is to develop one’s inherent strengths. What are your inherent strengths and how did you find them?
ZJ: I told you all this at the start of the interview. I am very good at choosing who to work with. The important thing is to find the right place for everyone and then motivate and protect them. Numerous arguments convince me that this is the right way. If someone wants to achieve something with me, let them come and try and convince me. Someone may not like you, but they can still believe in you and follow you. In the end, the results confirm this vision.
M: What do you think helps ensure that you don’t abuse your power?
ZJ: You use the word “power” too much, Minka. Power can be an empty word. I’ll say it again: power comes on its own. Power and respect come from results. You say: now I’m going to write twelve books. If people read these twelve books, then they’ll wait for a thirteenth. That is what you are asking me. Power is built. A kingdom where a child accedes to the throne? Failed kings are ten a penny. If you’re interested in power, look at Napoleon, who fell in the end. After the first victories on the battlefield, people followed him and believed in him, because they believed they were going to be victorious. And that afterwards they would get new estates, new castles, new money… And they followed Napoleon for so long, and at the crucial moment he felt so powerful that he backed the Russians into a corner. Either they would win, or they would die. Nature helped them. This is the point. When you start to stuff yourself with food – avocados, say. After the thirty-fifth avocado you’re going to be sick. You like power, but you have to exercise it with moderation or else you will burst.
I’ll always protect my people: on how you shouldn’t deviate from your path – or you’ll no longer be you
M: What would you say keeps you grounded?
ZJ: Exactly what I’m telling you. That I won’t always be in the position I’m in today. Will you still come and see me when they replace me, Minka?
M: If you convince me with this interview, I think so, yes. How important is it, in your view, that someone refuses to compromise their own principles on their way to success? Or is that an essential part of it – trampling on everything that gets in your way, including your own ethical standards?
ZJ: You can’t trample on your principles. Because once you start deviating from your path, you will no longer be you. Sometimes it’s easier to make a detour, but that is how you lose your way. You no longer actually believe in your own vision, your own strategy.
M: Your own integrity?
ZJ: Or even your own strength. That’s the problem with politics. Today they say black but tomorrow it’s white. I am totally opposed to that. You eventually find yourself going round in circles.
M: How often in your career have you felt that you had to overstep a mark you were not okay with or leave someone behind you didn’t want to?
ZJ: I’ve never done that. I was in a situation like that but I preferred to sacrifice my chance of being prime minister than betray one of my own. I could have done exactly what you’re asking. Accepted a rotten compromise. But the answer is no. I would not sacrifice someone like that. In the 2011 election, if I’d replaced the director of Lekarna Ljubljana, Marko Jaklič, I would have got two more seats in parliament. But I didn’t do it, I didn’t replace him. Last year I could have replaced the director of the Community Health Centre in Ljubljana and I would have had peace, but I didn’t do it. I protected her and supported her. And everyone knows it. Especially my directors. That I will defend them to the end. When I know, when I believe, that they are the right people for the job, the others can say what they like.
M: It seems to me that the respect you mentioned is also something that has to be built. That you do not always use leverage, even if you could, if you can see no point in doing so. Is that right?
ZJ: Above all, people need to know that they are safe. Safety is the most important thing. Look at Gaza, now. An example of personal safety at risk. If someone were to beat you up, here at the municipality, I don’t know how you’d get past it. You’d probably prefer to look for a job elsewhere.
M: I know that safety is one of the things you are very focused on here in Ljubljana, isn’t that right? I read about it in the book you gave me.
ZJ: We have officially been proclaimed the safest city in the world.
Success is a combination of heart and head: when you set your own priorities, you can’t lie to yourself
M: Potential can blossom when we feel safe. But to what extent would you say that you perceive an above-average sense of control over your life, time and energy? How important is autonomy to you? To what extent do you act out of passion? To what extent do you go where you are drawn?
ZJ: Success is a combination of the heart and the head. I always leave my most important decisions to intuition, and passion is very important in life. Passion is what enables you to take pleasure in kicking a ball, engaging in conversation, discovering something new. Today I enjoyed being with my directors. So, yes, absolutely, I mostly act out of passion.
M: Pleasure is a sign that we are on the right track. Do you agree? How do you allocate your time and energy as mayor? Everyone wakes up with a limited amount of energy. How do you prioritise how to use it? On the basis of the passion you feel for things, or on the basis of something else?
ZJ: I do everything I am scheduled to do for the day. Look, my desk is clear! It’s not about prioritising. I know what I have to do. Some things have to be done in advance.
M: You said that intuition helps you balance heart and head. How does something even get into your diary – what are the criteria?
ZJ: How did you get in here to see me? I didn’t know you. Tomorrow there will be others. If someone writes to me and I think I can help them, I do so. You come here, I say what I have to say, and we’re done. Priorities – the worst thing is when you set them yourself. Because then you cannot lie to yourself that someone has forced you to do something, to dedicate your time to something.
M: What do you think lies behind lasting and functional relationships? Who do you trust – on what basis and why? And how do you deal with those who disappoint you? How do you cope with betrayal, if that is something you have ever experienced?
ZJ: Trust is something that has to be built. The worst thing is to be betrayed by someone you’ve worked with for a long time. You can’t believe it when someone says to you: here are six pluses and two minuses. You have to be very open to everyone. I give everyone a chance.
You have to remember the good things, and not let the bad things ruin everything: on building trust
M: What about if someone lets you down? What do you do then?
ZJ: Alenka Bratušek, whom I made prime minister – we didn’t speak for ten years. When I saw her, I would cross the street. She made a different choice, which is her right, but when we started communicating again last year, she told me she knew she’d made a mistake. Despite that, I never said a single bad thing about her in ten years. We simply weren’t on the same page. Disappointment… you have to know how to balance it. For instance, a man takes a picture of you naked and then posts it online when you leave him. What are you going to do?
M: I often think about revenge, it’s true, even though it’s a waste of energy.
ZJ: It’s not just a waste of energy, it’s worse than that: it means your values are wrong. Instead of building up, you are breaking down. If your ex, who you’ve dumped, says that you were a cow, I say to him: Okay, but you were an idiot for going out with her. You should always take the good from a situation. There must have been something good, or you wouldn’t have been together for so long.
M: That is supposedly one of the things about narcissistic individuals: they see things in very black-and-white terms. First they idealise a person, then they are disappointed by them and suddenly everything becomes black.
ZJ: Don’t worry, I also see things in black-and-white. If I accept something, I stand by it – I got an award from Putin and when the war started in Ukraine some people called on me to give it back, but I didn’t, because I got it for friendship. At that time, we were friends, and we will be friends with Moscow again in the future. Black-and-white is not a bad thing, the problem is when you say something once and then deny it. You always have to remember the good things, and not let the bad things ruin everything.
M: But this reflects your own insecurity and weakness. It’s like shooting yourself in the foot.
ZJ: Absolutely. Weakness that was previously hidden reveals itself in such moments. Some people turn to drink, others to drugs. Some men even commit murder when their girlfriend leaves them. Others just find someone else.
M: You say I mention the concept of power too much. Often, though, it is power that gives a person the chance to show who they are. Position, status, money – a bit like in vino veritas, it brings out the truth that was previously hidden, doesn’t it?
ZJ: You have positive and negative characters. You can have power in the small collective of a family, a business. A country.
M: You also mentioned that sometimes a leader has to suffer – I think that was the word you used.
ZJ: There will always come a time when you are disappointed. Disappointed that you believe in someone and trust them.
M: When someone disappoints me, I’m angry at myself for not foreseeing it, for not seeing the person as who they really are.
ZJ: Don’t be angry with yourself if you don’t do everything perfectly. Time always reveals the true picture, because relationships last.
M: That’s true, yes, time is probably the best test of a relationship.
ZJ: Always.
M: It is popularly believed that achieving great success requires an enormous amount of sacrifice. Would you say that you have made sacrifices in your career that have exceeded your expectations?
ZJ: I haven’t made any sacrifices. My family, particularly my children, have suffered because of politics, but they also wanted what I wanted. They wanted me to be successful and were willing to pay the price. They cheered me on at elections. And there we are again – life is about ups and downs.
People without pain are not people
M: People who are not wounded in some way aren’t interesting, are they? I like icy women full of pain. I don’t know why I find people who carry pain in them so attractive.
ZJ: People without pain aren’t people. Look at the homeless man, for example. He became homeless because he couldn’t stand the pain.
M: Retreating is a path that leads to mental illness. He’s retreated, hasn’t he? When you stop exposing yourself to the thing that troubles you and refuse to face the problem. Retreating from life is the worst way. We think of escape as a comfort zone, but essentially it is...
ZJ: The essential thing is to leave your comfort zone. I know that I will not always be in this position, but despite that I will still be the same person I am now. I’m still friends with people I went to school with. And even with people from where I was born.
M: How have you coped with the envy of others, of friends? Or perhaps you’ve never experienced it?
ZJ: Are you envious because I’m the mayor?
M: No, because if you are good, that doesn’t stop me from being good too.
ZJ: It gives you the motivation to be even better. I am essentially never envious. Envy exists, of course, but it doesn’t matter to me. Envious is someone who never admits guilt, who always blames someone or something else.
M: Just a few more questions. How have you faced the fear of losing power, the idea that everything could come crashing down, given that history has often shown us that even unbreakable people can be broken in the right circumstances – like Napoleon, whom you mentioned earlier?
ZJ: No, I’ve always known that. It’s a question of attitude, of how much you invest in something. But when you mention things coming crashing down, a little caution is necessary. Not even at Mercator, on the conservative side, can I imagine myself going to my colleagues and telling them that we’ve gone bankrupt. There could only be a strike at Mercator if I were leading it. Otherwise it wouldn’t happen, because we are colleagues and we work together.
M: In your book, you also place a lot of emphasis on the idea of comradeship. Is that a principle or idea that you’ve inherited from the former Yugoslavia?
ZJ: No, a comrade is a comrade in sport, a comrade in hunting. The word “comrade” says a lot more to me than the word “gentleman”. Even today I begin my speeches with “Dear fellow citizens of Ljubljana, ladies and gentlemen, dear comrades…”
Fortune favours the brave
M: What do you think of the idea that the wheel of fortune is always turning and that the turnover within the ranks of the most successful is very high?
ZJ: Fortune favours the brave, but I don’t play games of chance. Sooner or later the wheel of life puts everyone in their place. As the old saying goes: Birds of a feather flock together. For better or worse.
M: Hmm, interesting. Personally, I believe in fate. First of all, that fortune favours the brave – and the intelligent, those with a clear focus and vision, those with determination, stubbornness and perseverance. On the other hand, I also believe in fate in the sense that the things that are meant for you in life will somehow find you. If you make a mistake – for example you told me the first time that I wasn’t well prepared enough and that I should come back another time – you can still transform your destiny. Correct your mistakes.
ZJ: I don’t believe in fate. You sent twenty requests and you got my answer. What does fate have to do with that? I had no idea what you were like, you wrote that you needed my help as part of your course. Your request was well put together, so I said to myself: if I can help this girl in some way, I will.
M: I’m very glad you did. Grateful. I have the impression that you’ve been in power in Slovenia for a very long time. You were an important figure in the business world and now you are someone who is quite powerful in politics. What is it that has helped you win and survive? Is it the fact that you have always been true to yourself?
ZJ: I come from a very poor background. In Serbia, where I grew up, the first twelve years of my life were very tough, so that period is still deeply rooted in my heart. What were we when we were children? Partisans. No one was a German. Then I got married, took out a loan because my wife was pregnant, enrolled in law school, sat four exams and dropped out before taking the fifth one. I was working and I had a family. Fate doesn’t come into it.
M: If you don’t believe in fate, what do you believe in? Everyone has to believe in something. In God, in communism, in a partner who is like a god… What do you believe in, Mayor?
ZJ: I believe in the beauty of life.
M: Hmm. But what has driven you onwards? What has been the main driver in your heart?
ZJ: That is something that is built over time. When they persuaded me to stand in the general election, I set out to win. A delegation of 26 people who mean a lot to me, headed by Milan Kučan, came to see me at the town hall. They told me I was the country’s only chance for change. And I beat Janša. No one believed that I would. In the space of just seven weeks we created a party, presented ourselves at the general election and won. I didn’t know how real politics worked. I didn’t know how elections were run behind the scenes. You win, but you don’t get to form a government. I attended parliament for three months. And realised that parliament is a waste of time. Then it was back to elections and back to the mayor’s office again. My team here has been with me for decades. Some of them since my Mercator days. Tanja’s been with me for twenty years. That’s longer than you’ve been alive.
My advice is golovec: I go walking there and talk to myself
M: Not quite. What would you say about the idea that the further you go, the greater the risks, and that it gets harder and harder to find advice, until there are some things you can only talk about with yourself?
ZJ: My advice is Golovec [a tree-covered hill to the south-east of Ljubljana city centre]. I live near Golovec and I go walking there and have meetings with myself. I talk to myself. Some people like to meditate; it takes all sorts.
M: Would you say that a good leader has to be a bit wild and also very genuine, very authentic?
ZJ: That wildness: that’s passion. That’s what it feels like to enjoy something.
M: Do you have anything to add about the ability to read people, to penetrate psychologically to the heart of their interests?
ZJ: It isn’t just about penetrating to the heart of their interests but having a sense of what they will be good at in the team. It’s about recognising that in people.
M: To what extent would you say that self-confidence and clarity of vision are crucial for success in an economic or political environment?
ZJ: Self-confidence is very important, but it must be based on reality. On hard work, sacrifice, preparation. It’s important to realise that a bluffer won’t get very far. But it’s good to be self-confident. If you want to be ambitious, you must be self-confident. Otherwise your ambitions are empty, without foundation. Education, hard work, demanding more of yourself than of anyone else – that’s what has to accompany self-confidence. You need to know what you’re lacking so that you can give added value to yourself.
M: That’s it. We’ve reached the end of the interview.
ZJ: That was very enjoyable. Life is so beautiful, isn’t it Minka?
M: Yes, if you know how to live it.
A longer version of this interview will appear in book form as part of a collection of all my interviews under the working title The Dark and the Light Side of ‘Ruling the World’: Insights of Leaders into the Psychology of Breaking Through and Staying on Top in Slovenian Business and Politics, which is due to be published at the end of 2024.